Curse

Ferminator · Feb 27, 2010, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Mysticsm does need a rework. Its too caster based. Look at the other primary atts of the other melee classes. They are all linked to doing more damage.

I'm sure if you get used to letting the enchantment end, no not reapplying it as its going to run out, you will love mysticsm.

But the problem is, there is no way easy way for energy management without mysticsm except for Zealous Vow but that takes an elite slot. No Wounding Strike

The assassin can relentlessly swing the scythe for 100+ damage cause the crit hit chance is like close to 100%. Warriors have no other elite to use cause strength uber buffs their damage anyway so they use Warrior's Endurance. They also have power strike for filler. AND FLAIL. That's another thing, dervishes have no maintainable non pve-only IAS that doesn't lock in their secondary proffesion. Sure you can use drunken master but that takes a pve-only slot.

Its not what the assassin or warrior can do that's better than the dervish, it is what the dervish can't.

Fallen Conspirator · Feb 28, 2010, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

IMO the biggest problem with dervs is the fact that no one wants to bother thinking of good builds so they just ask for buffs.

my main toon is a derv... and I completely agree. I scrutinize the skills my derv and the secondary to see which skills work well with each other.

people aren't doing that and as a result are asking to be buffed.
(just like Del said)

Once a player actually sits down and thinks about how the derv skills can Synergize with one another as well as with the secondary prof skills, and make builds accordingly, they'll make builds that are both very energy efficient and DPS strong.

but that goes for any class in general.

my only irritation is that i see more players playing derv, not because of the skills or anything but because of "1t l00k5 l337." "scy7h3 pwn5 n008s"

its saddening.

Fallen Conspirator · Feb 28, 2010, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferminator

Mysticsm does need a rework.

I dont even use mysticism on my derv, i realize it's a failed mechanic. lol

shoyon456 · Feb 28, 2010, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen Conspirator

I dont even use mysticism on my derv, i realize it's a failed mechanic. lol

You said that the reason dervs are inferior is because people don't think of good builds, but then you admit that the derv's primary is utter trash when compared to Crit Strikes/Strength/etc... and that it's a failed mechanic. Those two do not compute. You cannot be against a derv buff, but then admit that their primary isn't even worth using most of the time.

EDIT: Most of us are not asking for a dervish "buff." Just a Mysticism att rework, tying AoHM to Mysticism potentially, and looking at some of the almost universally useless or limited synergetic skills like Arcane Zeal, Pious Renewal, and Vow of Strength (because if you don't have condits in PvP, its a fail, and you can't control condition spam in PvE).

EDIT2: At the very least, we're hoping that Anet does something to the effect that the Derv can be outdone in the Scythe by Sins/Wars/Rangers/even Rits.

Fallen Conspirator · Feb 28, 2010, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

You said that the reason dervs are inferior is because people don't think of good builds, but then you admit that the derv's primary is utter trash when compared to Crit Strikes/Strength/etc... and that it's a failed mechanic... You cannot be against a derv buff, but then admit that their primary isn't even worth using most of the time.

i never said i was against a derv buff. i only said that people dont use the derv to it's full potential then as result, due to the players inadequacy and inabilty to create a sufficient derv build, cry for a buff. (a buff for all the wrong reasons)

True mysticism is broken, but i have a derv that is fine without it. 12+1+2 scythe 12+2 earth 2+3 wind. it has done well very well against critscythe sins, and scythe using warriors.

The point i am trying to make is that, i'm not opposed to a buff, however i wouldnt be disappointed if it never happened. My build doesnt use mysticism and i am doing quite well without it so, it doesnt really affect me.

Great Scoot · Feb 28, 2010, 11:49 PM // 23:49

It would be cool if they buffed traps alot and made them viable. Maybe made them less interruptible and have a bit more of AOE. It would create alot of diversity in the already versatile ranger class.

IMO

Master Ketsu · Mar 01, 2010, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Dervishes need a energy management buff. A mild one for PvP, and a generous one for PvE. I actually don't even have a derv. Not even a PvP character derv. It seems the majority of Scythe builds are better played by an Assassin or Ranger.

Rangers need an update to bow attacks. I think rangers are fine but a lot of the bow attack skills are just utter shit. Hell, part of the reason you see so many R/D and R/A in PvP is because bows just arent that good. Bows are great for conditions and rupts which gives them a place, but those are limited to a few very good bow attacks making it viable. If it wasn't for dshot and savage shot, no one would ever use Ranger for bows. Power shot, Splinter shot, to name a couple are skills I will never put on my bar. Those skills are shit.

IronSheik · Mar 01, 2010, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

You have just kicked yourself in the balls, haven't you? N/Mos are better healers/protters on heroes than Players are, and E/Mos have stronger heals and better e-management while still protecting the frontliners.

Herp derp derp.

Necro primary...how can they heal redbar their team good, cast bloodbond and hope they kill em?

Not secondaries.

Shriketalon · Mar 01, 2010, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Ways of making the Ranger more awesome? Three possibilities.

1) More pure Skills, not stances and preps. Ranger buffs come in only two forms, and you can only have one of each at a time. By converting some of these into pure skills, it would allow the ranger to boost his damage, particularly from barrage, without having to rely on other professions or PvE skills.

Read the Wind: Move to Expertise, becomes an untyped skill, not a prep.
Crossfire: Change functionality to deal more damage if the target is near an ally, make an untyped skill with duration, not a single attack.
Expert Focus: Becomes an untyped skill, not a prep.
Marksman's Wager: Becomes an untyped skill, not a prep.
Seeking Arrows: Becomes an untyped skill, not a prep.

More dakka. Expertise gets a direct buff, allowing primaries to launch major attacks. Some of the skills might need tweaking, but they should be effective and helpful, similar to how Critical Eye is extremely good for sins while still being maintainable and balanced.

2) Barrage is wonderful. Barrage is better when used on a primary Rit. That's bad, because pure rangers should be better with their own supreme skill. The damage boosts listed above should help, but there is one other thing that would help, and help a lot.

Barrage: Make it remove preparations AFTER the attack hits.

Wilderness Survival is back on the bar, baby. This change would allow Rangers to use one of their core means of buffing, preparations, AND bring Barrage at the same time without power problems. It means an opening volley; a massive dose of poison, an AoE interrupt like Cry of Frustration, or just a big old bomb from Ignite Arrows. A Ranger might even bring two or three preps so as to deliver multiple AoE attacks through them, making the profession more intricate rather than mere Barrage spam through the use of another attribute line.

shoyon456 · Mar 01, 2010, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen Conspirator

i never said i was against a derv buff. i only said that people dont use the derv to it's full potential then as result, due to the players inadequacy and inabilty to create a sufficient derv build, cry for a buff. (a buff for all the wrong reasons)

True mysticism is broken, but i have a derv that is fine without it. 12+1+2 scythe 12+2 earth 2+3 wind. it has done well very well against critscythe sins, and scythe using warriors.

The point i am trying to make is that, i'm not opposed to a buff, however i wouldnt be disappointed if it never happened. My build doesnt use mysticism and i am doing quite well without it so, it doesnt really affect me.

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but when a class is so screwed up that most people find its better not to spec in its' primary, isn't that the definition of broken? Maybe I'm crazy here, but the point of only Derv primaries having access to Mysticism was so they could use it effectively...

This is the reason that R/D, A/D, W/D can use the scythe better, because their primary actually provides reason for use.

Again, I state that Emanagement is not the primary problem with Mysticism. The primary issue with Mysticism is that it does not provide any melee damage advantage to the Derv, and the health gain from it is insignificant at best.

Age · Mar 01, 2010, 08:23 AM // 08:23

It would be nice to see Punishing Shot get a little buff possibly remove the half cast.It is the best Elite before you cap Crip Shot in Prophecies.

Desert Rose · Mar 01, 2010, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferminator

Mysticsm does need a rework. Its too caster based. Look at the other primary atts of the other melee classes. They are all linked to doing more damage.

That's because the dervish wasn't designed to be a (pure) melee class.
The problem is his casting abilities cannot compensate the lack of his melee capabilites and are therefor unable to hold a candle to warrior or sin as a frontline character. If you don't fix this problem you just shift the preferences between warrior, sin and dervish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

1) More pure Skills, not stances and preps.
(...)
More dakka.

Bad suggestions. Bows aren't meant for (direct) damage, it's a far better idea to increase the damage capabilites of beast mastery like Ugh suggested.

Quote:

2) Barrage is wonderful. Barrage is better when used on a primary Rit.

Barrage is mediocre unless run in a specific team build, and it's utterly trash on a primary rit unless it's for a solo farming build; you know, you can simply cast weapon spells on your allies.

Quote:

Barrage: Make it remove preparations AFTER the attack hits.

That is an interesing change, but I reckon it would be hard to code.

wren e · Mar 01, 2010, 01:49 PM // 13:49

For the Dervish, a possible change to mysticism that would make them more appealing would be to make it when an enchantment is cast on you, that is when you gain energy, when it ends is when you gain health, and while you are under the effects of an enchantment you attack faster. This would not up the maximium damage a dervish could do in one hit, but increase the dps that the dervish can output on par with what a sin, ranger, or warrior can using a scythe while still maintaining the unique flavor that the dervish has. Maybe have the numbers be "for every 1 rank in mysticism, you attack +2% faster while under the effects of an enchantment"

If Anet went this way both Onslaught and Heart of Fury would need to be reworked to remove the IAS from them and change it to some other functionality other wise it would be redundant.

Amy Awien · Mar 01, 2010, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

It would be nice to see Punishing Shot get a little buff possibly remove the half cast.It is the best Elite before you cap Crip Shot in Prophecies.

Yeah, been thinking about that one. Would be nice if it were a 5E interrupt, but make the bonus damage conditional - that would make it look good compared to Savage Shot and worthy of the elite slot.

Or maybe remove the bonus damage and have it steal energy on a successful interrupt.

Fallen Conspirator · Mar 01, 2010, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but when a class is so screwed up that most people find its better not to spec in its' primary, isn't that the definition of broken? Maybe I'm crazy here, but the point of only Derv primaries having access to Mysticism was so they could use it effectively...

Again, I state that E management is not the primary problem with Mysticism. The primary issue with Mysticism is that it does not provide any melee damage advantage to the Derv, and the health gain from it is insignificant at best.

I completely agree with you there. I don't know what the debate between you and I is...

lol

I said the derv was broken, but I also said I can effectively use it w/o it's main attribute... therefore a buff is not Paramount for my derv, or for his advancement (in either pvp or pve, i still dominate, and from time to time have a hard time against Earth Ele's or knockdown-warriors)

I also pointed out that the people I've seen are crying for buffs for all the wrong reasons, and not the ones that they should be using:

*Mysticism is a broken mechanic or the fact that other professions could POTENTIALLY make use of a scythe better than a derv*

so i never disagreed with anything you said, save the fact that you claimed i didn't want a buff, which was not true. I am apathetic to any change because this handicap hasn't had any real effect on me. I have adapted to it's shortcomings and compensated for them in full.

Do i think other dervish players will benefit from a buff? Yes. I'm sure of it.
Do i think the derv is underpowered in most normal situations? yes.
(but has it jeopardized the effectiveness of my derv and the way I play in pvp or otherwise? No.)

Do I want the buff on account of myself? No. (I neither need it nor do i find it appealing for my personal dervish)

I see no discernible difference in effectiveness between what I play and what a critscythe sin will play. It's just personal preference.

that's all... preference.

Shriketalon · Mar 01, 2010, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Bows aren't meant for (direct) damage, it's a far better idea to increase the damage capabilites of beast mastery like Ugh suggested.

If that is the case, then most Bow Attacks need a rework, because a lot of them are just +damage.

In fact, that would actually be a decent suggestion; use chained conditions kind of like the paragon and warrior. The attack skills to be changed to things like "if the target is crippled, inflicts cracked armor" or "if the target is bleeding, inflicts weakness". This would give rangers better condition mastery AND change a lot of useless skills.

Edit: As long as we are talking PvE balance, can we talk about Elementalists and Monks?

ER infuse healers outdoing monks is kind of ridiculous. RoJ smiters being better nukers than the nuke profession is equally absurd.

Can we have ER only effect elementalist spells, and give monks some better energy management (make Divine Spirit slightly less effective, but increase duration and decrease recharge, for example). In turn, can eles get a little love in the armor penetration department? For example, make Intensity supply armor penetration instead and have a duration based on ES, have Glyph of Elemental Power provide armor pen, and Glyph of Essence make your next spell ignore armor in exchange for losing all energy.

Age · Mar 02, 2010, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Yeah, been thinking about that one. Would be nice if it were a 5E interrupt, but make the bonus damage conditional - that would make it look good compared to Savage Shot and worthy of the elite slot.

Or maybe remove the bonus damage and have it steal energy on a successful interrupt.

I could live that.

Catchphrase · Mar 02, 2010, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Again, I state that Emanagement is not the primary problem with Mysticism. The primary issue with Mysticism is that it does not provide any melee damage advantage to the Derv, and the health gain from it is insignificant at best.

Damage inferiority is not of Mysticism's fault but the lackluster effects chosen for majority of dervish skills. Due to the PbAOE of these effects, whenever an enchantment ends, they are often watered down to enforce balance.

What I am thinking is that to have offense oriented enchantments (e.g. grenth's grasp) active and upon cast effects reduced in exchange for bonuses to its end effects should it be stripped before self expiration so as to reward people actively uses Mysticism. For balance sake, certain control measures such as losing 1 or 2 active dervish enchantments upon cast can be used to avoid stacking of such enchantments for a "bomb" effect when stripped or stacked covering powerful enchantments cast by support professions. Additionally, I suggest limiting the self removal of enchantments effect to only scythe attack skills as to not only compliment the style of "enchantment juggling" but also limits other professions from using scythes efficiently without a comprehensive team set up as they run risk of removing supportive enchantments (e.g. prot spirit) without a cover enchantment as dervish have.

Abedeus · Mar 02, 2010, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Herp derp derp.

Necro primary...how can they heal redbar their team good, cast bloodbond and hope they kill em?

Not secondaries.

A Necro primary can do the smartest thing ever:

Go with a Monk secondary or a Ritualist secondary and win PvE.

Because, you know... GW is still a game where you get the most out of a character by using both professions.

Morphy · Mar 02, 2010, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Oh no, my X doesn't have broken PvE skills like other professions do! Let's break my X with retarded skills as well!

You PvE-ers are so ridiculous.